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I created a chart to compare ibo to other addiction treatments and thought id share.
Creating it helped me get my head around where ibo fits in to the treatment landscape.
I think Ive fairly portrayed all the treatments (while still playing up ibo of course) but if you see
inaccuracies or have other comments, Im happy to hear.
chart with notes
people.tribe.net/75b13407-...15fa676ef0
full size chart
images.tribe.net/tribe/upl...15fa676ef0
Creating it helped me get my head around where ibo fits in to the treatment landscape.
I think Ive fairly portrayed all the treatments (while still playing up ibo of course) but if you see
inaccuracies or have other comments, Im happy to hear.
chart with notes
people.tribe.net/75b13407-...15fa676ef0
full size chart
images.tribe.net/tribe/upl...15fa676ef0
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Re: different drug treatments - comparison chart
Fri, February 13, 2009 - 1:07 PMDecreases withdrawal'
Alleviates cravings'
On your chart Gee' you got these backwards' you say' "Alleviates withdrawal" this would be dependant upon of what substance you are attempting to kick' and how long you have used such substance'
As to Methadone and Subutex' the withdrawal on these two substances takes 4 weeks' Iboga is no going to stop the withdrawal of either of these' unless you are on a very small dose' and you still have to await your natural endorphine levels to come back to normal'
Alleviates cravings' Ibogaine blocks NMDA receptors' hence white-walling body memory' this is one of the main reasons folks take Iboga/Ibogaine for addiction syndromes'
Also to add' the list is no very accurate in it's description of what each substance does'
Clonedine lowers blood pressure and helps with some of the withdrawal symptoms' it in no way alleviates them'
Buprenorphine takes away withdrawal the same as Methadone'
Clonadine is next to useless'
Naltrexone does no thing for withdrawal at all' all Naltrexone does is block receptors from opiates' hence you use' it no works'
Your list needs revising bro'
Ez
Nobuoni + -
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Re: different drug treatments - comparison chart
Sat, February 14, 2009 - 2:26 PMReports state that clonidine has similiar effects on NMDA receptors as morphine'
Ibogaine seems to be the only one that blocks the NMDA receptors'
Bliss
Nobuoni +
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Re: different drug treatments - comparison chart
Sun, February 15, 2009 - 8:29 AMnot backwards - methadone help allexiate heroin withdrawal and craving - its kinda why people use it.
naltrexone is an odd bird - its sold as q quick or rapid withdrawal, so who does that treatment? People
afraid of a long withdrawal. But the drug itself INDUCES withdrawal, - I almost gave it a "zero"
for "alleviates withdrawal" but then thought that would be slightly misleading as well.
You shouldnt address people as "bro" there slick - it tends to ramp up the hostility in peoples responses
Heres some bliss right back at ya -
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Re: different drug treatments - comparison chart
Sun, February 15, 2009 - 6:02 PMAlleviates cravings'
Decreases withdrawal'
I say again you got it backwards in your graph'
You say Ibogaine alleviates withdrawal in all cases'
THIS IS NO SO !!!
Ibogaine no alleviates the withdrawal of methadone or subutex' it can help' but you are going to cluck for a long time if you take Ibogaine to attempt to beat a substantial habit with either'
Ibogaine diminishes withdrawals' it no alleviates them at all'
As to cravings' methadone is a border line' folks take methadone cos it has a long half life' hence you only require one dose a day to prevent becoming physicaly sick' but they can still "crave" dope' the same for subutex' but folks know they can no use "Dope" whilst under the influence of subutex' it no works' cos it no binds to the receptors completely'
So I read your post and graph' I still say it is un-accurate' after many years work with these substances plants and folks'
So your account of Ibogaine being the wonder of all is un-accurate'
Plus alot of other things you say Ibogaine does'
Ibogaine binds somewhat to opiod receptor sites and blocks feedback of NMDA receptors hence "Whitewalling body memory"
Also increases energy in the brain' hence cells can repair faster'
This is why folks take it' so as to beat "Retardent withdrawal"
All Naltrexone does is blocks the opioid receptors from binding with opiates' it does no thing for detox and no thing for withdrawals'
You still have to wait for the hypothalimus and pituatry gland to produce natural endorphines'
Exactly the same if you took Ibogaine' only Ibogaine shall cover you for a little while from a lot of the pain of withdrawal'
You use long acting opiates' best you go short acting for 4 weeks before you take Ibogaine'
Two substances are known to beat retardent withdrawal/cravings'
Ibogaine and Harmaline'
Clonididne has been seen to effect the NMDA receptors the same as morphine' lowers blood pressure but does no thing for "Brain reward cascade "
We are all brothers and sisters of light "Bro" if it ramps up hostilities in you' then it is a problem you require to deal with'
I have no problems with calling you bro'
As I have no problems with pulling you on un-accurate information posted'
Bliss
Nobuoni + -
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Re: different drug treatments - comparison chart
Sun, February 15, 2009 - 9:26 PMYeah, Nobunoni is my bro. nothing insulting about it. just a try at good will. :) bro is meant well here. hi! -
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Re: different drug treatments - comparison chart
Mon, February 16, 2009 - 6:00 AMHiya bro' Thain' good to see you'
Gee' I mean no offence brother' it is all good'
I just saw your graph as a bit mis-leading' becasue of the big boost you gave to Ibogaine'
Granted Ibogaine does some pretty remarkable things' but it has it's limits' you gave it a clear card all the way'
This is un-accurate' becasue of the withdrawal times of some of these substances folks are attempting to beat'
The most remarkable thing about Ibogaine would be it's ability to increase energy in protein cells of the brain' long after the substance and it's metabolites have left the body' hence aiding in healing'
There are some issues to take into acount with Ibogaine treatment'
One would be post treatment anxiety and psychosis' plus also Ibogaine is extremely hard on the body'
It is no unusual for a client to go to all intence and purposes quite crazy after treatment' chewing through all the psychological stuff' and wired on Ibogamines'
Some folks think they are "Jesus" others that they can heal the world' some can become quite un-hinged for a while'
Speaking with agencies that help folks with addiction' this is one of the main reasons the psychiatric departments have a hands off approach to Ibogaine' It's stimulating effects send folks quite mad'
Personal experience' I took off for the best part of 11 weeks after treatment' granted she helped heal' but out in La La land was I'
A client attempted to jump off a building' becasue of severe psychosis' and had to be sedated on valium for 3.5 weeks'
A client drove her car into a bus' because of rage after Ibogaine and was sedated for 4 weeks'
Post treatment psychosis can be a big issue here' if it is no monitored correctly'
Harmaline seems to effect the same kind of "Whitewall" of NMDA receptors without the post treatment psychosis' and treat clients that have no responce to Ibogaine' there are those also that no respond to Harmaline treatment'
Apomorphine has been seen to be quite effective in treating opiate addictions' and also help resset' dopermine D2 receptor firing' aiding in normal "Brain reward cascade" hence lessen the pain of withdrawal and the resultant "retardent withdrawal" experienced'
All the treatments provided by government health care keep other folks in "work"
Any treatment considered would be best attempted on short acting opiates'
The withdrawal and return to normal of natural endorphines from Methadone and Subutex takes 25-30 days'
If you take Ibogaine whilst addicted to these substances you shall experience' "Blank with little withdrawal for five days' then the withdrawal comes back with a vengance''
You can no take any more Ibogaine' becasue Ibogamine levels are already very high' so have to await the bodies natural production of endorphines'
With "Heroin" the worst of the withdrawal is over inside of the first week' by day ten' the body is well on the way to recovery and normal endorphine production' the Ibogaine/Ibogamines covers some of the receptors' hence easing the pain of withdrawal'
Most folks feel very tired and blank for the best part of a week' then they take off psychicaly''
It takes 4 days to get blood clean from methadone' and then another 21 days for it to come out of the fat cells' hence it leaks back into the system' knocking down natural production of endorphines'
A client on 16mg Subutex for 3+ years' switched to Morphine for 18 days prior Ibogaine treatment'
Even at 18 days clear of Subutex he could still feel it crawling about through the Morphine' it took him another ten days to clear himself completely from the Morphine withdrawal' all in it took 28 days to clear his system and get a semblance of natural endorphine production'
There is no such thing as a quick fix' even with Ibogaine' for opiate addiction'
The advantage of Ibogaine treatment would be Ibogaines ability to block NMDA receptor feedback' the same as Harmaline'
Hence reducing the "Craving" experienced to triggering "Brain reward cascade"
Addiction is a complex beast that is linked to many receptors of the brain'
Ibogaine reduces "Anxiety" ???
You would have to be careful of what type of anxiety you seak of' anxiety to "Score" then yes' Ibogaine lowers this'
As to anxiety in general' that is debateable' cos when you see a client going to all intence and purposes quite crazy' how much anxiety do you think they are experiencing then'
Ibo for opiate addiction is no a very nice experience'
But quite possibly a shocking enough experience to bring about a dramatic change in lifestyle and substance use'
A client on 250mg of "Heroin" a day' ingested one 500mg dose of Harmaline'
He stopped using "Heroin" has been clean five weeks'
Experienced no post treatment psychosis'
Has no cravings or interest in drugs at this time'
Many Blessings'
Love & Light
Nobuoni + -
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Re: different drug treatments - comparison chart
Tue, February 17, 2009 - 1:32 PMI did Ibogaine for methadone withdrawl. I switched to morphine for 30 days first. While I was up and running after 30 days, I did not feel good....that's for sure...I mean, it's kind of strange...I had feelings of joy and peace but my body hurt like hell, I couldn't sleep, and there was a definite sense of "wrongness"...anyway, I'm only bringing it up because some of the posts I've seen make it sound like the whole ordeal of drug addiction will be over 30 days after Ibogaine....which is SOOOO not true.... I mean, you just spent seven years in a very dark place shooting drugs into your veins..... Check out this article over at mindvox by Patrick Kroupa...especially this part:
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No matter how you detox, for roughly 6-12 months, you're not gonna feel good. This is an understatement, in many cases you're going to feel like shit, because your neurochemistry is in the process of attempting to reset itself and hit homeostasis, and your dopamine d1 and d2's are trashed. In short, all the things you used to find pleasurable, aren't gonna be much fun. The only thing you're really gonna want to do, are more drugs.
If you've used ibogaine to kick, having noribogaine -- ibogaine's long-acting metabolite -- onboard for at least some period of time, can be extremely helpful. But the bottom line is, you need to be aware of what's happening. With at least some understanding, you know what to expect and have a degree of control.
It does get better, you will not feel this bad forever.
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Peace,
J -
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Re: different drug treatments - comparison chart
Tue, February 17, 2009 - 5:56 PMThank you Jonah' I have been saying this for a long while' but just get blown out'
If the treatment is done correctly shit'
Also folks think they take Ibogaine to kill withdrawals' it is their main fear' the pain of coming off'
They poohoo me when I tell them this is no strictly true'
It takes about 30 days before you are up and running' lessif you only ever used short acting'
but as Jonah has said' you no feel right for months after'
extremely wired first comes to mind' and chemicaly unbalanced' disconnected' psychicaly zapped !!
For myself and many' it takes 12-18 months before you feel a semblance of normality'
2-3months before you start to feel the full effects of the "Whitewall" of drug craving'
Initialy after treatment you just feel listless and blank' (no cravings if you no put yourself at risk) restless and unable to sleep'
One of the reasons I pulled you on your graph Gee'
Personal experience and the experience of clients have shown me' Iboga helps' and eventualy leads to a "Whitewall" of body memories of drug use' but it takes a lot of time and effort'
And most deffinitialy is no magic bullett'
Much respect and good energies to you Jonah'
Very glad to see you up and running and shinning brother'
Be well'
Blessings'
Nobuoni +
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